Wow, some really interesting ideas here that rarely get tackled. I feel we are brought up in our western culture (and maybe this is a universal I'm not sure) to have some kind of faith or belief. That belief is usually fixed or intransigent, and any digression from the "tribes" norm is punished by ridicule or persecution. Hence, we are encouraged to hold on to our beliefs firmly. However, as a human, as an individual, we are a constantly shifting mass of experience and emotion. How then should we hold beliefs that made sense to a version of ourselves that is 10 years out of date? Our relationship with ourselves, as it is with others such as life partners, is constantly in flux. How can we remain true to a fixed set of beliefs when we ourselves are so fluid? I've thought about this a lot of the years, about the innate spirituality we have, and our desire to hang it somewhere. The human condition demands a salve but we don't know where to find it. Religion and belief helps us feel that we are not alone in this lack. The irony, I believe, is that it is not a question of where we find it but how. Sorry, I've gone on there! Once again, great post!
I listened to an interview with Adam Grant this week (https://fs.blog/knowledge-project/adam-grant2/). He talked about basing your identity on your values rather than your beliefs. I think that is an idea that speaks to your question, ‘How then should we hold beliefs that made sense to a version of ourselves that is 10 years out of date?’
If you’ve got the time, I’d love for you to expand on your last thought: it is not a question of where we find it but how. It seems like there’s more to say about that.
Thanks for the heads up about the interview - I will check it out over the weekend! The idea of forming your identity on your values rather than beliefs is quite a powerful shift in mindset. Values are in some ways based on our internal experience, and the decisions we make based on them. Belief, I feel, needs some form of an external agent to be internalised. I'm a bit fuzzy with the definitions here, but they make sense to me!
The notion of not trying to resolve the suffering of the human condition in a search for a where, but rather adopting a stance of investigating the how is useful. When we attach our search for spiritual answers in formal religions, in the machinery that holds them up, we only going to receive a set of beliefs defined by others. However, if you place your attention on how, the results are more fruitful in my mind.
Take the moment we take to say a prayer.
We calm the mind. We step out of our day-to-day activity. We bring the most important concerns to the front and centre of our minds. So, if we remove the where from this - the church, the temple, the sangha - and instead look at the how, the ritual becomes irrelevant. The how is the powerful tool here - we sit quietly and calm the mind. We focus on the inner voice that is normally nagging about the shopping list, picking up the kids from school, or the next deadline. We listen to our true voice and we become supported. Prayer, Meditation or chanting all have similarities that are important to us when lifting the lid on belief.
That makes a lot of sense, Nick. The ‘where’ is the form of the thing and the ‘how’ is the spirit of it, if I understand you right. A growth trajectory seems built into your thinking. It seems rare for people to start at ‘how’, or at least to start at ‘how’ and stay at how forever. You need a form at some point – training wheels, a coach, a religion. You have to start someWHERE. The trick to the growth you’re talking about is not getting stuck there, I guess.
Are you saying you once believed that Jesus was God, and now you don't believe anything about what Jesus, God, and the historical accounts in the Bible? As in the Bible is not real history?
Hi, Kevin. Thanks for your question. There are so many directions I could take this. I think I will say three things in response.
1. Christianity shaped my life and my values. I am deeply grateful for that. There is so much richness in Jewish and Christian traditions – grace, being made in the image of God, God becoming truly human, resurrection, agape love – I could list for a very long time. These ideas are all very important part of our collective human consciousness. And they are very important to me.
2. There are members of the FOREST who are devout Christians, atheists, pagans, vaguely spiritual, and lots of things in between or beyond. If I try to write about what I *specifically* don’t believe, I will end up crapping on something that is important to someone. The poetry will get lost in the details. And the answer still wouldn’t be satisfactory.
3. Talking inside baseball is fun. Maybe that’s something we should do sometime over a (virtual) pint/coffee.
A virtual pint/coffee would be a lot of fun. I'm a big fan of talking inside baseball and getting in the details.
But I don't think you should be afraid to state that you don't believe they history of the Bible even if at one point you did. If you don't believe in God, then it shouldn't matter the other parts you disbelieve. I, who does believe in the historicity of the Bible, would not think you were "crapping on something" that is important to me.
And as you say, " I try to align my beliefs as closely as possible with my best understanding of reality;" if you no longer see Jesus as the Son of God as a real thing, that's okay state.
Your not believing it should not affect someone else's belief in it.
Where your find poetry helpful, I tend to find certainty and facts helpful I'm in agreement with Paul that if Jesus did not die and rise again, then Christians are to be pitied most among all men.
Because if it didn't happen, then I'm a fool for following a fantasy. Hey, maybe I am a little poetic there :)
I appreciate you pressing me on this, Kevin, because it’s made me think about where my resistance is coming from. I think I’ve located it. It’s not fear but awareness. My job here in the FOREST is to try to
- help people to see their innate creativity
- inspire hunger for reality
- point to a joyful integrated way of living
- create a space where the members of FOREST can also do those things with each other
So I have to ask myself: Does getting into the details of what I think is factual or not in the bible do any of those things for you or anyone else?
***
If you’re interested in meeting up sometime give me a shout. i.e reply to any TREE email.
Wow. I relate to every sentence of this. It's like you took the past 15 years of my complicated and messy thoughts about God, etc. and laid it out in a clear and easily digestible post.
You are a gift, Jeff. Your words are so helpful to read. Thank you.
Here’s some metaphor material for you, Anna. Your body contains and is covered in more nonhuman cells than human cells – numerically, though not volumetrically. Those nonhuman cells, especially your gut flora, are essential to keeping you alive. All those little creatures in your intestines have created an ecosystem that is unique to you. In you, they live and move and exist, to quote St Paul who was quoting the Greek poet Aratus. Furthermore, there is some really interesting evidence that they play a big part in your mental health. With all that in mind, is there any meaningful way in which the myriad nonhuman cells in your gut are *not* you?
As my beliefs flex I'm enjoying the freedom of not working towards something at the end of my life. I'm more present in the moments than I've ever been before and it's an incredibly joyful feeling.
You know when Neo full body flexes and the bullets fall? There is no spoon.
Wow, some really interesting ideas here that rarely get tackled. I feel we are brought up in our western culture (and maybe this is a universal I'm not sure) to have some kind of faith or belief. That belief is usually fixed or intransigent, and any digression from the "tribes" norm is punished by ridicule or persecution. Hence, we are encouraged to hold on to our beliefs firmly. However, as a human, as an individual, we are a constantly shifting mass of experience and emotion. How then should we hold beliefs that made sense to a version of ourselves that is 10 years out of date? Our relationship with ourselves, as it is with others such as life partners, is constantly in flux. How can we remain true to a fixed set of beliefs when we ourselves are so fluid? I've thought about this a lot of the years, about the innate spirituality we have, and our desire to hang it somewhere. The human condition demands a salve but we don't know where to find it. Religion and belief helps us feel that we are not alone in this lack. The irony, I believe, is that it is not a question of where we find it but how. Sorry, I've gone on there! Once again, great post!
I listened to an interview with Adam Grant this week (https://fs.blog/knowledge-project/adam-grant2/). He talked about basing your identity on your values rather than your beliefs. I think that is an idea that speaks to your question, ‘How then should we hold beliefs that made sense to a version of ourselves that is 10 years out of date?’
If you’ve got the time, I’d love for you to expand on your last thought: it is not a question of where we find it but how. It seems like there’s more to say about that.
Thanks for the heads up about the interview - I will check it out over the weekend! The idea of forming your identity on your values rather than beliefs is quite a powerful shift in mindset. Values are in some ways based on our internal experience, and the decisions we make based on them. Belief, I feel, needs some form of an external agent to be internalised. I'm a bit fuzzy with the definitions here, but they make sense to me!
The notion of not trying to resolve the suffering of the human condition in a search for a where, but rather adopting a stance of investigating the how is useful. When we attach our search for spiritual answers in formal religions, in the machinery that holds them up, we only going to receive a set of beliefs defined by others. However, if you place your attention on how, the results are more fruitful in my mind.
Take the moment we take to say a prayer.
We calm the mind. We step out of our day-to-day activity. We bring the most important concerns to the front and centre of our minds. So, if we remove the where from this - the church, the temple, the sangha - and instead look at the how, the ritual becomes irrelevant. The how is the powerful tool here - we sit quietly and calm the mind. We focus on the inner voice that is normally nagging about the shopping list, picking up the kids from school, or the next deadline. We listen to our true voice and we become supported. Prayer, Meditation or chanting all have similarities that are important to us when lifting the lid on belief.
That's why I like the How! :)
That makes a lot of sense, Nick. The ‘where’ is the form of the thing and the ‘how’ is the spirit of it, if I understand you right. A growth trajectory seems built into your thinking. It seems rare for people to start at ‘how’, or at least to start at ‘how’ and stay at how forever. You need a form at some point – training wheels, a coach, a religion. You have to start someWHERE. The trick to the growth you’re talking about is not getting stuck there, I guess.
What a brilliant piece of writing! (And thinking. And believing.)
Thanks, Katerina! I wrote versions of this one in my head for several weeks before I did the actual typing a few days ago.
Are you saying you once believed that Jesus was God, and now you don't believe anything about what Jesus, God, and the historical accounts in the Bible? As in the Bible is not real history?
Hi, Kevin. Thanks for your question. There are so many directions I could take this. I think I will say three things in response.
1. Christianity shaped my life and my values. I am deeply grateful for that. There is so much richness in Jewish and Christian traditions – grace, being made in the image of God, God becoming truly human, resurrection, agape love – I could list for a very long time. These ideas are all very important part of our collective human consciousness. And they are very important to me.
2. There are members of the FOREST who are devout Christians, atheists, pagans, vaguely spiritual, and lots of things in between or beyond. If I try to write about what I *specifically* don’t believe, I will end up crapping on something that is important to someone. The poetry will get lost in the details. And the answer still wouldn’t be satisfactory.
3. Talking inside baseball is fun. Maybe that’s something we should do sometime over a (virtual) pint/coffee.
A virtual pint/coffee would be a lot of fun. I'm a big fan of talking inside baseball and getting in the details.
But I don't think you should be afraid to state that you don't believe they history of the Bible even if at one point you did. If you don't believe in God, then it shouldn't matter the other parts you disbelieve. I, who does believe in the historicity of the Bible, would not think you were "crapping on something" that is important to me.
And as you say, " I try to align my beliefs as closely as possible with my best understanding of reality;" if you no longer see Jesus as the Son of God as a real thing, that's okay state.
Your not believing it should not affect someone else's belief in it.
Where your find poetry helpful, I tend to find certainty and facts helpful I'm in agreement with Paul that if Jesus did not die and rise again, then Christians are to be pitied most among all men.
Because if it didn't happen, then I'm a fool for following a fantasy. Hey, maybe I am a little poetic there :)
I appreciate you pressing me on this, Kevin, because it’s made me think about where my resistance is coming from. I think I’ve located it. It’s not fear but awareness. My job here in the FOREST is to try to
- help people to see their innate creativity
- inspire hunger for reality
- point to a joyful integrated way of living
- create a space where the members of FOREST can also do those things with each other
So I have to ask myself: Does getting into the details of what I think is factual or not in the bible do any of those things for you or anyone else?
***
If you’re interested in meeting up sometime give me a shout. i.e reply to any TREE email.
Wow. I relate to every sentence of this. It's like you took the past 15 years of my complicated and messy thoughts about God, etc. and laid it out in a clear and easily digestible post.
You are a gift, Jeff. Your words are so helpful to read. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Jim! That means more to me than you know.
I love this. Speaking about insane ideas people have, lately I tend to think of "god" as everyone and everything 😁
Here’s some metaphor material for you, Anna. Your body contains and is covered in more nonhuman cells than human cells – numerically, though not volumetrically. Those nonhuman cells, especially your gut flora, are essential to keeping you alive. All those little creatures in your intestines have created an ecosystem that is unique to you. In you, they live and move and exist, to quote St Paul who was quoting the Greek poet Aratus. Furthermore, there is some really interesting evidence that they play a big part in your mental health. With all that in mind, is there any meaningful way in which the myriad nonhuman cells in your gut are *not* you?
As my beliefs flex I'm enjoying the freedom of not working towards something at the end of my life. I'm more present in the moments than I've ever been before and it's an incredibly joyful feeling.
You know when Neo full body flexes and the bullets fall? There is no spoon.
1. This makes me very happy for you.
2. Is there any member of Gen X for whom The Matrix was not a seminal moment in their development?